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resize additional poly in existing track


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#1 sky

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 03:48 PM

hi guys,

just a quick question. can an existing polygon in an existing track be resized to whatever i want? at this time i'm playing around with a thought involving the grid boxes. now i know these are just superimposed textures on top of the actual track surfaces for most tracks - which, i guess, is why they seem to float on some tracks. so if they are that, would it be possible to resize them, say making them wider and longer without much of a fuzz? if my thoughts aren't completely wrong these are just a simple polygon with 4 vertices. so if i move the rearmost backwards a ways i should be able to get a box twice the size it was originally (or whatever size i would like). however i have not yet found this mysterious "grid box" file yet. i know there is a separate texture for it, but i haven't found the .3do yet (or can't seem to find it more like). if it is a .3do the editing bit should be straightforward, right? move vertices around, keep mapping coordinates > bingo bigger grid box?
are there any side effects to this? after all it is one to two polies tops per box, so performance shouldn't suffer unless the box is 200x200ft wide ;)

/after some time looking for it. seems it's part of the track.3do - can i edit that with 3dsimed without messing up the physics? that should be a yes i guess as the physical surface is in the .trk file, right? (god, i know nothing about track editing really)

#2 ginetto

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 04:50 PM

You need to use 3doEd , the old one, not 3dsimed. :)
I did use the trick for a couple of tracks to straight the curved polys at a turn intersection, FIR is one. :)

What you don't want is screw up the drawing order of the polys which is given by their relative position;  this will result in clipping effects.

Edited by Ginetto, 21 May 2011 - 04:54 PM.

Done these tracks and working on others.


#3 sky

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 03:43 AM

thanks ginetto!
3doEd - well let me see if i have that around here somewhere (yup got it, dated 1999? lol). i was thinking of finding the polygon # (address?) via 3dsimed and then just edit the vertices with gpleditor (if possible).
oh clipping effects, why oh why can't GPL just use just zbuffer like everything else. why does it have to be the bsp tree for the draworder :rolleyes:? stuff like that makes GPL editing really complicated. well i will have to see what happens when i enlarge the gridboxes.

ok next question :)
is it possible to add a box, say a haybale to an existing track without having the tracksources - just what you get with a regular install, i.e. everything that's contained in the .dat? let's assume i wanted to add a haybale in front of an exisiting telegraph pole. i would create a box with a haybale texture on it. would dump that .3do and .mip into the track folder and then... ? open the .3do and add a "pointer" to the haybale.3do and place it in front of the telegraph pole. is that possible? and if that is possible would that be an object i could drive through or would i bounce back if i hit it - or can i define what happens. i.e. soft target, hard target, drive through target and if i can, how?

i think this last bit might have been covered at gpl++ in general or in the gplea trackmaking tutorial, but i'm not building a track from scratch, i'm just editing an existing one.

#4 sky

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 02:51 PM

ah, either my version of 3doEd is shoddy, or it won't work. i tried loading the track with it - and it crashes. every darn time. tried editing the mapping (really mappying only) with 3dsimed, exported to gpl .3do (collison value 1 - whatever that is) and wow, filesize 4.7meg vs 5.6meg before - and of course gpl crashed.
now trying mapping edit in gpleditor, wish me luck, lol

ok so i found the poly hex addresses and could edit them in gpleditor as somehow none of the other tools would let me do what i wanted. changed the uvw as needed, saved as a new file. reopened that file. old values in it. W T F gives???

do i have to do a secret song and dance to get to change that uvw?? i can do it for cars, no fuzz and it works. for tracks... nope

so i was wondering, on saving gpleditor asks track? i say yes, what if i no? will it work? god this is exhausting

/20th edit
so apparently 3doEd 2.0 can open the .3do file, but i can't edit it, just get the address of a polygon.
and 3doEd 1.001 cannot open the .3do file.


so what's left to do? bruteforce hex editing? any pointers?

Edited by sky, 22 May 2011 - 04:41 PM.


#5 Luis Babboni

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 09:37 PM

All that about you talk is chinese for me yet.  :P

#6 sky

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 03:18 AM

haha yea, i'm grasping at straws here. seriously, i think i could probably find the area for that polygon required to change using a hex editor, but how to find the values that need changing? they are floating point values and i'm not used to finding those. also how is the structure of such a .3do file? like polygon, vertices, .. coords, uvw ? i guess i'm off to reading some more. bah cry me a river. i need to edit the UVW coordinates (mapping) for 8 vertices on 2 polygons.

the problem at this time is that the mapping overlaps. and as it is texturing two different parts of a track i can't change the texture for one part without affecting an area of the other part :(. very easy fix, supposedly, but no can do.

#7 ginetto

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 04:17 AM

To add objects you use the raceline by Guru or GPLwall changer by Stefano.
A haybale 3do that you add can have the collision you want and it doesn't depend of the track.3do but only by the object 3do; you can place a 3do with or without collision , it just need to have the same name for the track 3do.I think the quickest fix for your purpose is to recreate the build files so you can tweak all the mapping you want ;)

Edited by Ginetto, 23 May 2011 - 04:20 AM.

Done these tracks and working on others.


#8 sky

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 04:27 AM

hi ginetto the problem with that is, it is a track released in 2002 by two brothers, who, i believe are no longer active with the gpl scene. my last email to them was in 2006! ;). so no chance of getting the build files i'm afraid :'(. that's why i'm trying to find a way of editing the mapping with an "aftermarket" tool ;)

however thanks a lot for the info regarding the haybale & external .3dos that surely will come in handy for several tracks, to spice things up a bit :D

#9 ginetto

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:36 AM

View Postsky, on 22 May 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

...so apparently 3doEd 2.0 can open the .3do file, but i can't edit it, just get the address of a polygon.
and 3doEd 1.001 cannot open the .3do file.


so what's left to do? bruteforce hex editing? any pointers?

Try this version; there are 3 around and this should be the working one :think:

For the build files I meant you can recreate them in less time than actually do what you are trying to do I guess :P

Done these tracks and working on others.


#10 Remy

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:39 AM

Maybe it would be simplier to tell us which track you want to update :)

Anyway here is a cln collection to use with Guru's raceline tool, if it's Reims, then it's in...

Attached Files



#11 sky

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 08:25 AM

yea it's reims. it's the bit underneath the two dunlop arches. it's one texture with two dark areas that overlap. with the original texture you don't notice it as the entire texture is one basic darker colour. my version has had a gradient for 5 years now (time flies, eh?) and with thomas and his beautiful colours, i thought, why do what i always thought would be the best - use his colours and my hires textures and bingo. which is basically what happened.

that aside, there are other tracks where i would like to do similar small things and fixes. so it's a general question really. thank you for the file ginetto, i will try it tonight, hoping it is the one "golden" :D version that enables me to do what i want with it. and thank you remy for the collection of .cln files - i will also study that later tonight, time permitting. monday night is movie night ;).

the thing with all this is learning (and of course beautifying the track(s)) for the grand project - spa. i'm a bit impatient at times - some may have noticed that already - and i don't want to wait, so i would like to be able to fix details like that myself and not distract you all from your task by me whining about it :P.


ok this is offtopic now :P
for instance.. when i was playing with the pitlane textures of reims, i wanted to make them a bit more interesting, so i added skid / tyre marks to it. then i thought. hmmm burnouts? where would i expect them elsewhere - ah :lightbulb: of course - starting grid. they are always too "clean" for me. that's how i came upon the idea of increasing the size of the gridbox. if the gridbox is usually 1 unit "high", i intend to make it 8 units "high". that would cover one area in front of the box and 6 behind. somewhere between the last two units should be where the rear wheels are of an average car. so i would add a series of tyre marks there, spaced apart so they match our cars et presto... a "dirty" starting grid. it'll be using alpha, but that's ok as the gridbox is already using alpha anyway.
if this works for reims and looks ok, i will definitely add it on my list of things to add to spa67 as well. the dirtish pitlane is another thing on that list :)

#12 Border Reiver

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 09:36 AM

If you ask nicely, and I like you, ;) then I can do clns for most tracks given a day or two of notice. As Ginetto said, some things are easier to do using TRL, such as adding new objects or adjusting the groove, while others are easier in GPL Wall Changer, which is much more powerful, but also takes much more effort as it is not so intuitive. I have literally pages of A4 paper with columns of hex addresses that I was changing for the Multiseason Mexico update to change textures on that track between the various seasons. That really was a fun couple of evenings.... I guess I must have changed something like 5000 addresses in all.

Rob

#13 sky

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:59 AM

oh the sheets of paper stack for editing purposes, now that sounds mighty familiar. add in a bunch of sketches of the cars, tracks or whatever other wild ideas i have.. yea, sounds about right

on a slightly downer note - the 3doEd version above is seemingly the same, but not quite as my old one. i still can't edit only view, ok granted and update. but i cannot edit the mapping there. what am i missing? lol

i've got:
3doEd 1.0i dated 1999-9-26 -> 449kb - doesn't load reims.3do and crashes trying to do so
3doEd 1.0i dated 2000-9-17 -> 482kb - loads reims.3do, can't edit though (ginetto's file from above)
3doEd 1.0i dated 2000-10-3 -> 482kb - seems same as above
3doEd 2.0d dated 2003-1-19 -> 708kb - loads reims.3do, shows me texturing coords, but can't edit (see screenshot)


ok anyway, now i got the .cln what do i do with it? :P loaded it into the racing line, added some other file to it (dat i think) and now have a new reims.3do that is smaller than the original one. errr :confused:

oh and rob, thanks for the offer! i think i'll just click some textures together over the week and start reading at the weekend. lots of reading it seems

Attached Files



#14 Border Reiver

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 03:52 AM

With the cln, having given TRL all of those files to tell it where to find the dat, 3do and trk, plus the cln you are using you can now either add a new groove file to the track, which is a .grv file made using GPL Replay Analyser, (and then if you are me, re-edited using Excel to be how I want it to look ;)), or you can add new objects to the track using another file that tells TRL where to add them. I forget what the extension for this file is, but it will be in the readme for TRL along with the required file format. In that file you can add extra objects by giving the distance along the track, distance to left or right and distance vertically to place the object, plus the relative rotation and scaling. Adding objects tends to be a bit of trial and error, so save a copy of the original 3do and then keep deleting the new ones you make and going back to the original for each iteration until you are happy. Also remember that it adds a new object each time you run TRL, even if there is already an object at that location, so once you have placed objects where you want them and you are happy, make that 3do file your new "default" 3do and start using a new additions file for any further objects you want to add.

As ever, if you get stuck, just shout and someone should be able to help out.

Rob

EDIT: About the change in file size, I am not totally certain, but sometimes it might relate to the way that the 3do is written. If it was an older track made with one of the earlier compilers, it might be that when TRL adjust things that it converts the file into the newer, more neatly written file format so it may become smaller. The old compiler used to split groove sections across track walls which adds polygons (and also clipping) whereas TRL does not, so it makes a nicer looking result. That might be why you see a smaller new file. How do the original and TRL versions compare in game in terms of visual appearance?

Edited by Border Reiver, 24 May 2011 - 03:55 AM.


#15 TvO

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 05:10 AM

As an aside, coincidentally I went to Reims just the other day :D . I vote for creating an echo using RaceCon for track sound, the acoustics of the place is incredible.

Tommie.

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#16 sky

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 05:59 AM

ah tommie, i saw your post on fb about that and was thinking hm, do a panorama shot for a proper horizon? :)


anyway, i think i understood the bit about adding additional objects now. that will come in very handy i'm sure :), but i'm still stuck at my original "just change the uvw mapping coords for 8 points" bit. any further pointers, i'm willing to go hex-editing to resolve that... how are the mapping coordinates stored? supposedly the range is 0 - 1.0 but you can also do 0 to 1.4 for instance wrapping around. so i can't know the possible range of values for sure. or finding a basic breakdown of the .3do structure. i saw a link on the gplea tutorial page, but that leads to nirvana (404) sadly.

#17 TvO

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 06:43 AM

Just had a thought, Rolf Farrell posted the build files on GPLR a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if the files are still around due to the server crash and stuff, but I'm sure Rolf still has the files.

Tommie.

#18 Border Reiver

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:07 AM

I am not sure that there were build files posted. He started work on the track as a project and he had the blessing of the Allam brothers to do so, but I think he was working without complete build bits. I am pretty sure that Ginetto or I could recreate build bits for the track as ultimately rebuilding does give you absolute control of the compile process. It all depends on the level of rebuild that you feel is necessary.

In the Oulton track sub forum you will find reconstructed build files for that project which I made from the John Black original track. I talked to him and he had long since lost his build files and so I recreated them with help from Paul and Ginetto and we have files that allow us to compile our own version of the track, with groove (using the latest compiler), (which John's original would not do due to the tools he originally used). That project is actually very close to being finished, as it really just needs the SET/unk4 values tweaking to improve FPS and some final texture and object tweaking to be done. Paul and Remy put in a lot of work on it already for the interim graphics update which was released to make the current version prettier, the rebuild was really only to allow the addition of a groove to the track.

@Roman, to change the mapping co-ordinates, I think you can do that in GPL wall changer. You need to find the offset of the polygon you are changing in 3doed and then find this in the 3do using wall changer. IIRC that will then let you edit the details of that polygon, such as its mapping co-ordinates. Previously I only used wall changer to swap the mip which was mapped to a wall, but left the mapping the same. This might also work as a solution if you can change to a different mip name in one place and then adjust a "special" texture to suit that location?

Rob

Edited by Border Reiver, 24 May 2011 - 08:12 AM.


#19 sky

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:57 AM

i will try that. i didn't know how to use the wallchanger as i didn't have the manual - no office products on any of my machines at home. just converted ginetto's english tutorial for it and converted it to .pdf so i can see it at home. i'll report back later :)
"reverse" engineering would probably be overdoing it. there are only a few areas and those i can manage, i guess, or hide by add on objects :P

#20 Border Reiver

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:55 AM

View Postsky, on 24 May 2011 - 08:57 AM, said:

i will try that. i didn't know how to use the wallchanger as i didn't have the manual - no office products on any of my machines at home. just converted ginetto's english tutorial for it and converted it to .pdf so i can see it at home. i'll report back later :)
"reverse" engineering would probably be overdoing it. there are only a few areas and those i can manage, i guess, or hide by add on objects :P

Replacing things is also quite easy. To remove something I can give you a simple little object that is one invisible polygon. Name it the same as the object you want to kill, and  :bye: its gone. :) Then you just place its replacement where you want it using TRL.

It might be that wall changer will do what you want. It takes a bit of getting used to, but the tutorial is quite helpful and taught me all that I needed to know for the Mexico Multiseason add on.

Rob

#21 sky

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 01:22 PM

ROB!

that was exactly what i was looking for. and the tutorial is ace. at first i thought what the heck is all this? then i did as i read it, changing stuff around was a 2 minute job, with 1.5 of that spent double checking. it works. i've got them bridges fixed. awesome. stefano, thank you for that awesome tool. after reading the tut it actually all makes sense. because let's be honest, at first glance, i was looking for the box that said UVW and didn't find it, so i thought how is this tool going to help me. boy was i wrong. happy as a little kid again. as they say in unreal tournament "RAMPAGE!" - so what next? maybe finally do the textures i'm supposed to? good idea, i guess. it's just comforting to know i can bend stuff now to be exactly as i want without having to bother an array of people to do it for me.


/edit
got a bit excited there and hit the post button
now where was i? ah yes, spa67. later fellas.

oh for those of you who have thomas' beautiful reims update installed, here's what i have outlined somewhere else, take my old hires stuff and combine it with "his" colours. he says he doesn't have a palette per se, but seriously his touch with colours is something i'm completely lacking. back in my scene days i was mr minimal colours, 16-20 colours were enough. for a bonbon coloured piece 64-128 were enough ;).
anyway i've taken his textures and used them as colour / shading guides for the hires stuff - tarmac only for the time being. the tarmac itself is a variation of what i have used at tripoli and spa67 so far. since i had redone a bunch of the commercials about 5 years ago, i will probably apply the same to those as time goes along. ah yes, in the screens below, there's also the dirtified pitlane. although it has to be said i applied the colour stunt to the entire bit not just the tarmac - fool! - so the addon stuff will not have the same tint in the "finals" some day.

also please keep your fingers crossed for thomas. tomorrow's the day of the docs, so hoping all goes well and the results will be positive, we need you, man!

Attached Files


Edited by sky, 24 May 2011 - 01:42 PM.


#22 Remy

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 01:53 PM

Looking very nice Roman! Posted Image

#23 M Needforspeed

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 03:02 PM

your asphalt is so nice, Roman, I 'll hope the BRM H 16 will get rid of spreading all the catchtank oil on it !

#24 grizz

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 03:54 PM

a very good painter Roman  :dribble:  :artist:  :thumbup:

#25 Border Reiver

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:02 AM

Glad it worked Roman. Results look stunning. Very good job.

Rob