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3DoEd or 3DSimEd discussion


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#1 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 05:05 AM

To make discussion about a maybe future version easier I think it's a good idea to start talking about it here.

The current 3DSimEd has some nice features like adding objects via the add primitives to a scene which can be an opened track.3do.

But it lacks the possibility to save this object as a GPL 3DO object.
I have a terrible time sometimes to 'explode' an added primitive.

Sometimes I have also trouble assigning textures as well as face to an object. With my current knowledge 2 settings are important for GPL 3do. One is the direction which in Phils usage is the plane which determines in what direction a bitmap will be facing.
Another nice option would be to have a chance to add a collision box to an object and export it.

Some weird things I have noticed is that sometimes zooming in and out a bitmap/texture is drawn only as a triangle. Any ideas what can cause this ?

#2 ginetto

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 08:12 AM

3DSimED is much better in viewing the track you are building than 3DOED, you can go around using the mouse, it loads 100 times faster than the older Noonan's ED and the newer version has also the option of showing the relative coordinates of track side objects, meaning that you can move around a 3do using the lateral and longitudinal coordinates without caring about the absolute vertical position because is automatically calculated.
You move the object clicking on an arrow and you see the object actually moving.
These are huge improvements on the old 3doED wich untill now I used.
obviously not being able to save in GPL format, at least until now, It must be used in couple with 3doED if you want to change something on the actual 3do but in building tracks, where you don't use the ED tool for editing but for seeing what you are doing with other tools, is great! :cool:

Done these tracks and working on others.


#3 MECH

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 04:58 AM

I like the fact that i'm able to adjust the u/v mapping of the mip and can see the changes directly in the mip (for a normal tso 3do that is)
The increment on the u/v mapping is in whole points. Not very useful if mapping coords vary from 0.0 to 1.1 for single mapping.

The panning and zooming functions are also quite improved to 3doEd en GPLTrackeditor  :)

The only thing i found troublesome are selecting polys that lay in front of eachother. I'm not able to select the polygon behind another.
The next function on a plane only selects adjacent polys if i'm not mistaken.

Cheers,

Martin


#4 Dave Noonan

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:59 PM

Hi everyone

I have made some improvement for the next version which should only be a week or two away from completion.

I hope to include ASE export (including collision planes) to allow creation of objects with the ASE23DO utility. I will also include that feature in a new Demo version so that those who do not have 3DSimED can try the feature.

Keep on the lookout for any release info at www.sim-garage.co.uk and I will also try to remember to leave a message here when I release.

Cheers!

Dave N.

#5 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 01:09 PM

Thank you very much Dave !

#6 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 10:30 AM

New version is done !
A nice list of features:

Quote

Version 2.5 Release Notes
  • New: Collada .DAE import and export. This is now the recommended format for using with 3D editing apps such as 3DS Max and Blender.
  • New: Export GPL TSO in both GPL native .3DO and .ASE for ASE23DO.EXE.
  • New: Tools->Texture Map Conversion for all maps used by the materials within a scene or model.
  • Improved: Imported GPL .3DO now show the collision planes.
  • Improved: Export commands that include objects now have the option not to export hidden objects.
  • Improved: Option when converting textures to write GPL 16-bit mips
  • Improved: Material Diffuse RGB can be set.
  • Fix for problem with Browse Folders dialog which could crash preventing the exporting of objects etc.
  • Fix to ensure 3DSimED no longer looks for the VS2005 run-time libraries.
  • Fix for skipping the first record when importing a GPL .3DO.
  • Fix for writing DX9 shader for Diffuse & Normal maps & specular RGB, when exporting rFactor, GTR2, RACE07 .GMT files.

Testing now :)

#7 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 03:12 AM

Some great stuff now in it. I could see my collison boxes as well as here is an answer from Dave how to add them:

Quote from Dave:

Quote

What you need to do is to create some geometry and assign to them a material
named "_GPL_COLLISION_MAT". Any faces which have that geometry will be used
to create the collision planes and will not be included in the visible
model.
The Primitives->New Box function allows a box to be added to a model - I
suggest using that.

Cool and thanks for listening !

#8 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 07:07 AM

OK, this was easy.
I create one material called _GPL_COLLISION_MAT and create the other materials I need for a simple thing like a brake marker which should be solid. Then I create one box which is a bit smaller then the needed one and assign the _GPL_COLLISION_MAT material.
Next step was to create the 'outer' box and add the textures/mips to it which I have defined in the material section and export it. Works great for my brake marker which is now a real stop :)

But I have 2 problems at the moment :)

It would be nice to have some possibility to change the unit system to cm/meter/inch/foot or to be able to see how big something is in a seperate row/cell so that I can see that a sign which is 4 units big is a real big thing :)

Another one is that it would be great to assign custom colors to the xyz axis because I had no real idea how it will look and it was placed wrong.

Nothing serious I hope :)

Now an interesting thing. If I have something like a track.3do and import other 3do objects it's working great. Any chance to be able to at least export the position as an TSO entry ? Would make it real easy to work with the TSO files :)

#9 Dave Noonan

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 11:42 AM

3DSimeD works in metres and converts to metres when importing. You can right click on vertices to get the coordinates or read the XYZ on the right of the status bar.

In future versions I will try to give the different axis colours instread of white, that is a good idea.

I doubt I will be able to add the ability to update a TSO entry for a track but I will keep looking


Please remember that I have a forum for 3DSimED here:- http://thepits.us/bo...wforum.php?f=25

Cheers!

Dave Noonan

View PostBernd Nowak, on Jun 6 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

It would be nice to have some possibility to change the unit system to cm/meter/inch/foot or to be able to see how big something is in a seperate row/cell so that I can see that a sign which is 4 units big is a real big thing :)

Another one is that it would be great to assign custom colors to the xyz axis because I had no real idea how it will look and it was placed wrong.

Nothing serious I hope :)

Now an interesting thing. If I have something like a track.3do and import other 3do objects it's working great. Any chance to be able to at least export the position as an TSO entry ? Would make it real easy to work with the TSO files :)


#10 Luis Babboni

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 10:26 PM

View PostBernd Nowak, on 04 June 2009 - 10:30 AM, said:

New version is done !
A nice list of features:

Quote

Version 2.5 Release Notes
  • New: Collada .DAE import and export. This is now the recommended format for using with 3D editing apps such as 3DS Max and Blender.
  • New: Export GPL TSO in both GPL native .3DO and .ASE for ASE23DO.EXE.
  • New: Tools->Texture Map Conversion for all maps used by the materials within a scene or model.
  • Improved: Imported GPL .3DO now show the collision planes.
  • Improved: Export commands that include objects now have the option not to export hidden objects.
  • Improved: Option when converting textures to write GPL 16-bit mips
  • Improved: Material Diffuse RGB can be set.
  • Fix for problem with Browse Folders dialog which could crash preventing the exporting of objects etc.
  • Fix to ensure 3DSimED no longer looks for the VS2005 run-time libraries.
  • Fix for skipping the first record when importing a GPL .3DO.
  • Fix for writing DX9 shader for Diffuse & Normal maps & specular RGB, when exporting rFactor, GTR2, RACE07 .GMT files.

Testing now :)

Mmmmmm.... I understood right that now the 3dsimed can load a .dae object and export it as gpl.3do?
I bought the 3dsimed a couple of years ago just for use as a viewing tool.
But now Im downloaeded the last 3dsimed version, the .13, load a .dae object but I cant save it as a gpl.3do  :unsure:
The export gpl.3do button remains not activated, the same for the ase23do button.

More than this, can I use the 3DSimEd to create GPL 3DOs or I still need to use the Onetwo3DO?
It was this, the need of using this, sorry, actual times obsolete program (the  OneTwo3DO), what decourage me a little to continue to made my track.

Any hint?

Thanks.

Edited by Luis Babboni, 19 April 2011 - 10:03 AM.


#11 ginetto

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:57 AM

3DsimEd creates 3DO objects but sometimes ,, if complex, they can have missing polys and be quite huge in size.
You might try to purge materials, Triangles and Points, then Point Up the normals before to export to GPL 3do.
I used it to create the 3DO of the ring at Daytona (anello.3do) using a GTK built for the purpose and  it worked quite well.
Otherwise you can use 3dosimed to get the vertex for the infield you will do in 123do , this is a copy paste job, not difficult at all too ;)

Edited by Ginetto, 21 April 2011 - 03:58 AM.

Done these tracks and working on others.


#12 Luis Babboni

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 08:02 AM

View PostGinetto, on 21 April 2011 - 03:57 AM, said:

3DsimEd creates 3DO objects but sometimes ,, if complex, they can have missing polys and be quite huge in size.
You might try to purge materials, Triangles and Points, then Point Up the normals before to export to GPL 3do.
I used it to create the 3DO of the ring at Daytona (anello.3do) using a GTK built for the purpose and  it worked quite well.
Otherwise you can use 3dosimed to get the vertex for the infield you will do in 123do , this is a copy paste job, not difficult at all too ;)


Thanks Ginetto.

What program you suggest to do the 3DOs if not this?
Sorry but I do not understand, my english is poor (and my knowledge as a GPL track maker too), what you mean with "get the vertex"  :unsure:
You say that I can use the 123do to begun the 3DOs and after that modify it using 3dsimed? I not understand what is the "infield", sorry.

BTW, I guess that may be you saw my circuit project webpage. I take the liberty to named you as a "reference source". First I put "colaborator", but you have nothing to do with my mistakes and wrong work I will do, so I prefer to say just "reference source"  :)

#13 ginetto

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 01:13 PM

I use basically 123do all the time but 3dosimEd is very handy to quick up the work :)


If you want to create a 3do of a hill (this is an infield; an object outside the limits of the track.3do) , for example see my Vallelunga; you will get the coordinates of the points where you want the hill to start using 3dosimED (fig 1) basically the end of the track 3do.
You right click on the point and copy-paste the values of the point in 123do and create a new vertex.
Once you have done this work for all the points, you start to create the hill in 123do.
Then you assign the 3do using type 1 coordinates and giving 0,0,0 for x,y and z values.


Only at Daytona I built the anello.3do using just 3dosimed ( fig 2)
You see here that is basically the whole outside track, included the straight that is missing in the GTK. This way you see it all along the track, without using a super high value in the FB file.


Edited by Ginetto, 21 April 2011 - 01:26 PM.

Done these tracks and working on others.


#14 Luis Babboni

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for the hint.
I cant see the attachements :-(

Here todays video around the real streets:


#15 Luis Babboni

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:55 AM

I listened somewhere that some Zeltweg curbs are made with 3dos.
My idea so, is to use 3dos, with collision boxes, to imitates the irregularity on the "rooks streets" I have:Posted Image

But my first tryes do not work.
I amde a little, near flat, cube with collision box made via 3dsimed.
But I cant pass over it.
In the image below, the cube (the red figure before the column) is underground enough to just emerge a little portion of it over surface. But I cant go over it.
Posted Image
More than this, I placed it several meters complete under ground and I bump the invisible continuation of it and still cant go over it.

Are thats a characteristics of 3dsimed collision boxes? I guess those, If it is true, Zeltwegs curbs arent made using 3dsimed collision boxes.

The question is, how to made a 3do with collision boxes thats I feel when I pass overit, but do not stop me completly.

Thanks.

Edited by Luis Babboni, 03 May 2011 - 11:57 AM.


#16 ginetto

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:57 PM

Use 123do instead and build something that is not squared but with more gentle angles.

Mexico multiseason has the tires in the turns replaced by curbs 3dos if you use it with 69 cars (see pic), try it :)
Remember that there is a limit in collision boxes 3do no more than (? I don't remember :P )
With the new patches , that can load long tracks, this number is increased.
With the same patches you can also use the bump feature too to make a section bumpy; this feature I used in some Targa sections.
Default bump value in GPL is 1; this bump feature can make values from 0 to 20 or more but more is basically impossible to drive.

Attached Files


Edited by Ginetto, 03 May 2011 - 01:05 PM.

Done these tracks and working on others.


#17 Luis Babboni

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 01:11 PM

View PostGinetto, on 03 May 2011 - 12:57 PM, said:

Use 123do instead and build something that is not squared but with more gentle angles.

Mexico multiseason has the tires in the turns replaced by curbs 3dos if you use it with 69 cars (see pic), try it :)
Remember that there is a limit in collision boxes 3do no more than (? I don't remember :P )
With the new patches , that can load long tracks, this number is increased.
With the same patches you can also use the bump feature too to make a section bumpy; this feature I used in some Targa sections.
Default bump value in GPL is 1; this bump feature can make values from 0 to 20 or more but more is basically impossible to drive.

What "bump feature" of wich program you said Ginetto?

#18 ginetto

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 01:54 PM

You need a program to create the file needed; Nigel did the work.It has a limit; that it works only with the new patches so if one want to cheat, he can just not use the new patch and the track doesn't have the bumps.
That's why we used only at targa since you need the patch to load that track ;)

Done these tracks and working on others.


#19 Luis Babboni

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:40 PM

I understand.
I was thinking in it. Im wrong if I say that you not need to make none "real" bumps, just some to act on the FF? Again, those with no FF do not feel the bumps.
By the way.... Im not sure f I have the new patches installed and I never fell those bumps on Targa....o are those on the long street at the first village?
Mmmm... I do not need actually to marked "long track" patch in GEM to use Targa. This implies that I have the new patches installed? So, the bumps are those at that street I said?

Well, so I need to use 123do then..... that Nigel program is not public? How the program act on the trk to did the bumps?
Note, I saw that the collision box was made in the 3do, not in the trk! Im wrong? That is, I do not save the trak via GPLtrk, just via trk23do... or the trk23do acts on the trk too?

Too much questions, sorry :-)

Edited by Luis Babboni, 03 May 2011 - 09:18 PM.


#20 ginetto

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 04:23 AM

The trk23do acts only on the 3DO so is just what you see, not what you feel.
A 3do with collision is felt without the need of save the TRK.
The TRK need to be created using GPLtrk
The bumpy road at Targa is not what you feel in Cerda village, is more where , in the mountain you pass on broken asphalt and is a sort of random vibration/ondulation.
Wit hthe FF you feel it on your steering wheel; without FF you see it and you find also the car is more difficult to drive.
If you can enter the Targa so you have the patch applied.
:wave:

Done these tracks and working on others.


#21 Luis Babboni

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 06:36 PM

Another idea to make bumps in my "stones street":
If you split sections in a lot of short subsections but just in the trk, not in the gtk, the FPS goes down anyway?

Still fighting to create collision boxes with 123do. I did a little (needing to rescale the original size values) 3do but when I added the colision box the object change from 1 meter to 20000 meters!!!... and freeze the GPL when touch it.

Edited by Luis Babboni, 04 May 2011 - 06:37 PM.


#22 ginetto

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 03:00 AM

No , TRK doesn't affect the FPS :)
Here is a very well done article by Jim Pearson that will help you :cool:

Attached Files


Done these tracks and working on others.


#23 Luis Babboni

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 05:19 AM

View PostGinetto, on 05 May 2011 - 03:00 AM, said:

No , TRK doesn't affect the FPS :)
Here is a very well done article by Jim Pearson that will help you :cool:

Thanks Ginetto.
The Excel based altitudes tools are still usefull or it was like this just before the EightED program?
I use first other just graphical program, Graced, but now I understood that in EightEd I have all I need: the graphial and the enter by keyboard values.
Im wrong and still are features that you can make with Excel sheets better than inEightED?

Thanks.

EDIT: nop...... Im wrong.... in EightEd you just can edit the altitud start and the stepness start of each trace, not the other 2 editable values* ¿D1 and D2 in terms of Jim Pearson notes?
Im fighting to understand how to put properly the txt2gtk .txt into alg_eight_functs.xls
*: well, more accurately talking, you can edit those values but just graphically.

Glup. the GPLEA tutorial talk about altitudes Excel sheets but in the corresponding download, there just a sheet called alg_height_functs that is different to what they talking about. Is a new version? Better? I still cant understand how to import data from a previous gtk (the txt output from txt2gtk), just how to start a gtk altitued from the scracht.
This Ecel works starting with "center line" altitudes and then you can use it as a reference to make the traces altitudes. But in the gtk there no any data about the "center line", just of traces. So you cant import the txt2gtk data and have as a result the centerline data! Even the each trace data in Excel works around altitudes differences between traces and centerline.


New EDIT: no..... the EightED have all the data you can manipulate.... the 4 editable trace values are not all free.... at least if you want a smooths traces*.
So.... I think that I will not use the Excel sheets. Comment?
*: BTW, what about not smooth traces? In my first attemps, 2 years ago, I work on prpose with not continue traces to make starts and ends of sidewalks (in the note you give me, Jim said that the easy way to do it is adding short sectors at the ends of sidewalks, as you can see in papy Monaco... but he do not say that is the unique method). Its seems to works with no problem in GPL, but cause its puts errors in EightED program and I never saw a track with this kind of discontinuites, I stop using this idea.

Another discover to me. The trk follows the complete trace functions, the 3do just join with planes the start and end trace values. Im right?

Edited by Luis Babboni, 05 May 2011 - 09:39 AM.


#24 Luis Babboni

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 12:27 PM

Mmmmmm.... I was working on the idea of divide the section in a lot of very short sectors to do the bumps.
I find something interesting making 0.5 meters sectors with gradient = -0.1
It was easy to do in EightEd for a plane sector. But for not palne sector I´ll must need to work with something like Excel sheet to not ruin the traces out of the main road.
I think I can handle with the Excel.... but I need to use GTK 2 txt to have the data, working with it, and then use txt 2 gtk Phil Flack tool.
But for working with the Excel sheet, I need to know what each value in the txt means and there is a value that I cant understand what it is.

For example my sector 20 has 177914 lenght and its trace 0 has start height of 81693; a d1= 113644; d2=-116783 and d3= 22824
20 177914 81693 113644 -116783 22824 7.310.358
But.... what is this 7310358?!
Note, in spanish Excel the "." means english "," for numbers.

Edited by Luis Babboni, 05 May 2011 - 12:29 PM.


#25 ginetto

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 05:46 PM

Also in Italian the dot is a comma for numbers :)
You need to change your excel preferences and change that behavior before to import the txt data otherwise some cells will report wrong data.
Do you have the excel sheet for the altitudes? I think it explains what the numbers are.
I dont even use it though, I just change every single D1 and D2 values ( one the exact opposite than the other) manually for the 2 traces that contour the asphalt.
I usually use GracEd, don't like HeightEd, is not enough detailed for my liking.
Jim Pearson use only the Excel sheet for all his work and I bet also John Basara, I think is a matter of habit.
Values of 1000 more or less are quite good and a random variation of the numbers is pretty cool in the feeling.
BTW that's what I did at Sebring and what John Basara did at Monza 10k :) ; you divide in the TRK the section in little one and then change the values of D1 and D2 adding 1000 to D1 and subtracting 1000 to D2 or viceversa.

EDIT, did you use surface 3 or 2 instead of 1 for the cobblestone? It should be probably better since they have less grip.

Edited by Ginetto, 07 May 2011 - 02:30 AM.

Done these tracks and working on others.